AND NOW YOU BACK DOWN

The Shoot

Kaitain claimed that the counters against the shoot taught in Shaolin Wahnam were useless, and offered to show us. This led to some Shaolin Wahnam instructors taking up the challenge.

The following discussion is reproduced from the thread What is Genuine, Traditional Taijiquan? started in the Shaolin Wahnam Discussion Forum on 5th June 2006.

"You have insulted our school and arrogantly thrown out challenges, but now they have been accepted, you back down."

-- Sifu Robin Gamble

Kaitan
Forum Guest
7th June 2006

Sorry Robin, I've been in Montreal on business and just got back so Im jetlagged. Consequently if my tone appears aggressive, please dont take it as deliberate - I'm just knackered.

As stated by me elsewhere on this forum, the very act of an audience or videoing prevents it from being a "friendly sparring" session as there is basically too much at stake. If you want to challenge me, Im not interested. If you want to see what im talking about, come and see me and I'll show you (and you can show me) in private. I've been very clear on this from the start - no video, no audience - in my experience it is the only way to avoid bullshit and ego. As a start point I wouldnt spar with you anyway until I got to know you (I have this rule with anyone who trains with me, especially for people Im not teachin) - a taijiquan practitioner should be able to demonstrate most of the principles within pushing hands before even translating it to fighting.

It's a solid way to avoid accusations of boxing/wrestling as well. If you've got 'it' in pushing hands then that's usually enough to prove knowledge and internal skill - should you feel the need to spar after that then I'd be happy to do so at a later date.

Aside from that, I've covered all of your areas in depth on this and other threads here - I see no benefit in doing it again. It'll just lead to "my dad's bigger than your dad" and frankly that's wasting everyone's time. I have my understanding, you have yours - if you care enough to know about mine, then arrange via PM/email to come and see me and I'll gladly cover things in the appropriate manner in private - irrespective of the outcome I won't talk about it to other people (I have had a few exchanges like this and I stick to this for good or ill).

Since I have legitimate lineage from a Yang style master who fully endorses my teaching and skill, I am confident that I am faithful to the Yang family interpretation of taijiquan - it isnt boxing and wrestling. However, your understanding differs (this is not a criticism, Im just stating where we are different) - given that difference, would it be fair to say that we would be no better off after sparring? If I 'won' you could say it was because of size (I'm 6'4'' and 18 stone - I'd say you were about 5'10 and at least 6 stone lighter?), or because of boxing/wrestling - "not taiji". If you "won" then I could say it wasn't taijiquan (not unlike Dan's challenge to Chu, no?) because it didnt follow principles that I believe are key. Would you or I be any further on in this discussion?

Anyway - the offer is there on those terms, no others. I have nothing to gain or lose by involving myself with this, and consequently I invest nothing of myself in the outcome of the discussion.

Regards

Paul

PS - I appreciate you are in a somewhat awkward position. My opinions are merely that - if it helps your position then Im perfectly happy for my posts here to be deleted so that you dont feel compromised - I understand how it impacts upon you and your school.

kungfu combat
Being combat efficient is an important aspect of Shaolin Wahnam training. The photograph above shows participants at an Intensive Shaolin Kungfu Course practice sparring.

Robin Gamble Sifu Robin Gamble
Instructor, Shaolin Wahnam England
7th June 2006


Dear Kaitain,

I am really disappointed in you.

After coming to our forum and telling us that our techniques are useless and that you would be ready to show us a real shoot, you back down when we accept you offer. Nevertheless, it doesn't matter. As I have said, if you change your mind about meeting us in sparring, that is fine. Let us continue the debate.

Originally Posted by Kaitan:
"the very act of an audience or videoing prevents it from being a "friendly sparring" session as there is basically too much at stake."

We insist on a video recording so that it can show exactly what happened in the sparring.

Originally Posted by Kaitan:
"I've been very clear on this from the start - no video, no audience - in my experience it is the only way to avoid bullshit and ego."

It is just the reverse. A video recording can demonstrate who is “bullshiting”.

Originally Posted by Kaitan:
As a start point I wouldnt spar with you anyway until I got to know you.

Didn't you say that “Someone with 6 months of kickboxing would have killed him (meaning me)”? You have more than 6 months of kickboxing, I presume.

Originally Posted by Kaitan:
"If you've got 'it' in pushing hands then that's usually enough to prove knowledge and internal skill"

From what you have written, my impression is that you have no Taijiquan knowledge and internal skill. I shall elaborate on this in my coming posts.

Originally Posted by Kaitan"
"Aside from that, I've covered all of your areas in depth on this and other threads here - I see no benefit in doing it again. It'll just lead to "my dad's bigger than your dad" and frankly that's wasting everyone's time."

You have not even touched the surface of Taijquan.

What you have been doing is to tell our students that Wahnam Taijiquan is not Taijiquan, that our counters are useless, and that your Boxing and Wrestling techniques are better than our Taijiquan techniques. This public debate is not to find out whose dad is bigger, but whether Kaitain's version of Taijiquan or Wahnam Taijiquan is closer to genuine, traditional Taijiquan.

Originally Posted by Kaitan"
"I have my understanding, you have yours - if you care enough to know about mine, then arrange via PM/email to come and see me and I'll gladly cover things in the appropriate manner in private - irrespective of the outcome I won't talk about it to other people (I have had a few exchanges like this and I stick to this for good or ill)."

I am not interested in any private exchanges with you. Any exchanges, such as debates or sparring, should be made in public so that everyone knows what has happened. I remember my Sifu says something as follows:

Originally Posted by Kaitan:
"If I 'won' you could say it was because of size (I'm 6'4'' and 18 stone - I'd say you were about 5'10 and at least 6 stone lighter?)"

This statement of yours further shows that you have no knowledge of genuine, traditional Taijiquan. Both Jamie and Ronan as well as myself know you are bigger in size and much heavier than us.

But to us, in line with the philosophy of genuine, traditional Taijiquan, size and weight do not matter.

Originally Posted by Kaitan:
"I appreciate you are in a somewhat awkward position. My opinions are merely that - if it helps your position then Im perfectly happy for my posts here to be deleted so that you dont feel compromised - I understand how it impacts upon you and your school."

This is the biggest irony. It is you who are in a very awkward position. You have insulted our school and arrogantly thrown out challenges, but now they have been accepted, you back down.

I am glad that you have posted in our forum, and definitely want your posts to remain. Your posts highlight the pathetic situation Taijiquan is now in. You claim to come from a respectable Taijiquan lineage (which we do not doubt), but insult the past masters of your own lineage suggesting their combat techniques were ineffective, and you try to be smarter than them by bringing in Boxing and Wrestling techniques.

What is Genuine, Traditional Taijiquan?

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